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đ¤ đ **Reconsidering moving Yarn.social's development back to Github**: Speaking of which (_I do not forget_); @fastidious and I were discussing over a video call two nights ago, as well as @lyse who joined a bit later, about the the whole moved of all of my projects and their source code off of Github. Whilst _some_ folks do understand and appreciate my utter disgust over what Microsoft and Copilot did by blatantly scraping open source software's codebases without even so much as any attempt at attribution or respecting the licenes of **many** (_if not all?_) open source projects.
That being said however, @fastidious makes a very good and valid argument for putting Yarn.social's codebases, repositories and issues back on Github for reasons that make me "torn" over my own sense of morality and ethics.
But I can live with this as long as I continue to run and operate my new (_yet to be off the ground_) company "Self Hosted Pty Ltd" and where it operates it's own code hosting, servicesa, tools, etc.
Plese comment here on your thoughts. Let us decide togetehr đ¤
#yarnsocial #github #opsnsource #copilot #microsoft
đ¤ đ **Reconsidering moving Yarn.social's development back to Github**: Speaking of which (_I do not forget_); @fastidious and I were discussing over a video call two nights ago, as well as @lyse who joined a bit later, about the the whole moved of all of my projects and their source code off of Github. Whilst _some_ folks do understand and appreciate my utter disgust over what Microsoft and Copilot did by blatantly scraping open source software's codebases without even so much as any attempt at attribution or respecting the licenes of **many** (_if not all?_) open source projects.
That being said however, @fastidious makes a very good and valid argument for putting Yarn.social's codebases, repositories and issues back on Github for reasons that make me "torn" over my own sense of morality and ethics.
But I can live with this as long as I continue to run and operate my new (_yet to be off the ground_) company "Self Hosted Pty Ltd" and where it operates it's own code hosting, servicesa, tools, etc.
Plese comment here on your thoughts. Let us decide togetehr đ¤
#yarnsocial #github #opsnsource #copilot #microsoft
@prologic I wanted to list my points, so that others can weight in:
1. **Availability**: The self hosted mills.io services have a single point of failure, with limited redundancy.
2. **Exposure**: Self hosted git lacks of the exposure GitHub provides (thousands, if not millions of developers and users already in it), and adds an extra friction layer for collaboration.
3. **Ease of collaboration:** New accounts are needed to participate on self hosted git. Millions already have a GitHub account, without the need to creating yet another.
I feel like I am forgetting something else. I will add it if it comes to mind.
@prologic I wanted to list my points, so that other can weight in:
1. **Availability**: The self hosted mills.io services have a single point of failure, with limited redundancy.
2. **Exposure**: Self hosted git lacks of the exposure GitHub provides (thousands, if not millions of developers and users already in it), and adds an extra friction layer for collaboration.
3. **Ease of collaboration:** New accounts are needed to participate on self hosted git. Millions already have a GitHub account, without the need to creating yet another.
I feel like I am forgetting something else. I will add it if it comes to mind.
@fastidious nope I think that was it, I donât think you forgot anything! the other minor issue of where some of the supporting services for Yarn social run I believe is irrelevant because Yarn social is design to be decentralized in the first place đ
@fastidious nope I think that was it, I donât think you forgot anything! the other minor issue of where some of the supporting services for Yarn social run I believe is irrelevant because Yarn social is design to be decentralized in the first place đ
They are fair points.
It could be one of these situations similar to how a privacy advocate might upload videos to YouTube - sheer audience, exposure etc. A small sacrifice to one's personal morals in order to get the most reach and hopefully have a net positive effect.
That said, it would sure be nice if Copilot could be opted out of...
What about using gitlab instead? A federated git server would be neato.
Although github does offer merging conflicts⌠haha
@ullarah Gitlab is trash đ We use it at my workplace, so no thanks đ
@ullarah Gitlab is trash đ We use it at my workplace, so no thanks đ
No on gitlab. If its self hosted gitea is best in class.
I can see hosting a mirror on github if only for the redundancy/visibility. Some projects will host but then direct contributions on their self host. Like Go does.
I would suggest using a vanity domain that can redirect tools like go get to hosting of choice. And not require rewriting all the packages any time it gets moved.
No on gitlab. If its self hosted gitea is best in class.
I can see hosting a mirror on github if only for the redundancy/visibility. Some projects will host but then direct contributions on their self host. Like Go does.
I would suggest using a vanity domain that can redirect tools like go get to hosting of choice. And not require rewriting all the packages any time it gets moved.
@prologic Let me dump my thoughts on the points mentioned by @fastidious:
1. **Availability**: Yeah, itâs down sometimes. So is my server. Such is life on the internet. If that is truly a concern, maybe we should investigate setting up mirrors. Although, I wonder: Is a short downtime truly a problem? In what situations? Canât we find other solutions?
2. **Exposure**: This has been brought up earlier, I still donât get this point. You drown in the noise anyway. There are *so many* projects on GitHub, what makes you think that people will find yours just because itâs on GitHub as well? I still believe that itâs more important that Yarn is discussed on blogs, social media, ⌠(I once tried to publish my music on platforms like SoundCloud. Itâs totally pointless. *There is no exposure*, just because youâre on a big platform. Either people have to talk about your stuff anyway, or one of the platformâs algorithms has to kick in and put you on âthe front pageâ. I think the latter is actually much more unlikely! And even if it happens, does it attract the ârightâ people, i.e. people who want to help and collaborate?)
3. **Ease of collaboration:** This is kind of valid. But then again: Weâre talking about developers here, about people who want to contribute to your *code*. They have to dig through and understand that damn code. Should we treat these people like theyâre dumb teenagers with an attention span of no more than 30 seconds, so itâs too much to ask to quickly register somewhere? (*If the answer is yes*, isnât an e-mail address where they can dump their patches a good alternative?)
@prologic Let me dump my thoughts on the points mentioned by @fastidious:
1. **Availability**: Yeah, itâs down sometimes. So is my server. Such is life on the internet. If that is truly a concern, maybe we should investigate setting up mirrors. Although, I wonder: Is a short downtime truly a problem? In what situations? Canât we find other solutions?
2. **Exposure**: This has been brought up earlier, I still donât get this point. You drown in the noise anyway. There are *so many* projects on GitHub, what makes you think that people will find yours just because itâs on GitHub as well? I still believe that itâs more important that Yarn is discussed on blogs, social media, ⌠(I once tried to publish my music on platforms like SoundCloud. Itâs totally pointless. *There is no exposure*, just because youâre on a big platform. Either people have to talk about your stuff anyway, or one of the platformâs algorithms has to kick in and put you on âthe front pageâ. I think the latter is actually much more unlikely! And even if it happens, does it attract the ârightâ people, i.e. people who want to help and collaborate?)
3. **Ease of collaboration:** This is kind of valid. But then again: Weâre talking about developers here, about people who want to contribute to your *code*. They have to dig through and understand that damn code. Should we treat these people like theyâre dumb teenagers with an attention span of no more than 30 seconds, so itâs too much to ask to quickly register somewhere? (*If the answer is yes*, isnât an e-mail address where they can dump their patches a good alternative?)
@prologic Let me dump my thoughts on the points mentioned by @fastidious:
1. **Availability**: Yeah, itâs down sometimes. So is my server. Such is life on the internet. If that is truly a concern, maybe we should investigate setting up mirrors. Although, I wonder: Is a short downtime truly a problem? In what situations? Canât we find other solutions?
2. **Exposure**: This has been brought up earlier, I still donât get this point. You drown in the noise anyway. There are *so many* projects on GitHub, what makes you think that people will find yours just because itâs on GitHub as well? I still believe that itâs more important that Yarn is discussed on blogs, social media, ⌠(I once tried to publish my music on platforms like SoundCloud. Itâs totally pointless. *There is no exposure*, just because youâre on a big platform. Either people have to talk about your stuff anyway, or one of the platformâs algorithms has to kick in and put you on âthe front pageâ. I think the latter is actually much more unlikely! And even if it happens, does it attract the ârightâ people, i.e. people who want to help and collaborate?)
3. **Ease of collaboration:** This is kind of valid. But then again: Weâre talking about developers here, about people who want to contribute to your *code*. They have to dig through and understand that damn code. Should we treat these people like theyâre dumb teenagers with an attention span of no more than 30 seconds, so itâs too much to ask to quickly register somewhere? (*If the answer is yes*, isnât an e-mail address where they can dump their patches a good alternative?)
@xuu Agree and good idea. đ
@xuu Agree and good idea. đ
@movq I actuallly love your points đ everything you have said is the epitome of everything that I hold dear when originally formalizing the vision for what weâve built together thus far and I hope we can continue in the same spirit đ
@movq I actuallly love your points đ everything you have said is the epitome of everything that I hold dear when originally formalizing the vision for what weâve built together thus far and I hope we can continue in the same spirit đ
Also, letâs not forget that Git itself is decentralised. If people really have to, they can fork the code to *their* GitHub account and send you the link to that. You can pull and merge their changes â with attribution and everything. The only issue here is how to *discuss* those changes, and there are a lot of options for that (mailing list, forums, heck even twtxt itself).
The way I see it, the only *truly* valid reason for GitHub would be: The person who wants to publish their code is not able of hosting it themselves. For whatever reasons. Lack of technical skills, lack of money to pay for a server, stuff like that. Services like GitHub are a blessing in those situations. I donât think that applies to Yarn, though.
Also, letâs not forget that Git itself is decentralised. If people really have to, they can fork the code to *their* GitHub account and send you the link to that. You can pull and merge their changes â with attribution and everything. The only issue here is how to *discuss* those changes, and there are a lot of options for that (mailing list, forums, heck even twtxt itself).
The way I see it, the only *truly* valid reason for GitHub would be: The person who wants to publish their code is not able of hosting it themselves. For whatever reasons. Lack of technical skills, lack of money to pay for a server, stuff like that. Services like GitHub are a blessing in those situations. I donât think that applies to Yarn, though.
Also, letâs not forget that Git itself is decentralised. If people really have to, they can fork the code to *their* GitHub account and send you the link to that. You can pull and merge their changes â with attribution and everything. The only issue here is how to *discuss* those changes, and there are a lot of options for that (mailing list, forums, heck even twtxt itself).
The way I see it, the only *truly* valid reason for GitHub would be: The person who wants to publish their code is not able of hosting it themselves. For whatever reasons. Lack of technical skills, lack of money to pay for a server, stuff like that. Services like GitHub are a blessing in those situations. I donât think that applies to Yarn, though.
I gotta admit, @movq has me pretty swayed here...
Also, thinking about it more, doesn't Gitea have the ability for GitHub logins anyway?
@eldersnake It does and is enabled on my instance already đ
@eldersnake It does and is enabled on my instance already đ
@prologic Ahh, well that's one potentially major roadblock cast aside then! đ
I haven't been able to cast aside the horrible thought of CoPilot all day, and looking in to it a bit, apparently it hasn't been much good at 'learning' anyway, often copying entire code snippets verbatim.
That and what @movq was saying, personally, I vote stay as-is. But that's just me and I'm well aware I'm someone who will sometimes be stubborn and not choose the most convenient route.
@eldersnake Oftentimes I find the most "convenient" isn't necessarily the most "correct" đ
-- We often learn towards "convenience" at the expense of everything that that truly matters, just look around you đ¤Ł
@eldersnake Oftentimes I find the most "convenient" isn't necessarily the most "correct" đ
-- We often learn towards "convenience" at the expense of everything that that truly matters, just look around you đ¤Ł
@xuu Yeah, the mirror would probably be the best idea.
@movq regarding this:
> Exposure: This has been brought up earlier, I still donât get this point.
The kind of exposure I referred to was developers. Skilled individuals that could join, and/or contribute to the project. Yarn needs that kind of exposure.
@fastidious
> The kind of exposure I referred to was developers. Skilled individuals that could join, and/or contribute to the project. Yarn needs that kind of exposure.
That, I understand. đ I just donât think that youâll get that *just because* itâs hosted on GitHub.
Hmm, maybe Iâm misunderstanding or misusing the word âexposureâ. đ¤ Sorry. What I mean by âexposureâ: You make a painting and hang it on a wall of your apartment = little exposure, just the people that visit you at your home will see it. If you show the painting at an exhibition where thereâs 10 other paintings and lots of visitors = large exposure. However, if there are 1000 other paintings at that exhibition = much less exposure, because it wonât stick out that much. To me, GitHub is like an exhibition of paintings but *everyone* can show up at any time and put their painting there, so thereâs a *vast* number of paintings and *your* painting will hardly be noticed by anybody. So the mere fact that youâre at an exhibition doesnât mean that youâll get lots of exposure.
I mean, I have discovered literally zero projects just because theyâre on GitHub. I wouldnât even know how that works. When I log into GitHub, I see this:
First page of GitHub
Only the stuff on the right where it say âexplore repositoriesâ is *new* to me. And itâs completely random â the chance of Yarn showing up there is basically zero. The rest, I already know about it. So how will I discover new and interesting projects that I never heard about? Am I supposed to visit the âstarsâ pages of the people that I follow and then check out those repos? And look at the list of followers of those people? đ¤ I donât see how this is going to work out.
Alright, thereâs one thing: If one of the people that I follow âstarsâ a repo, Iâll get notified about that. Maybe something interesting shows up there. That depends *a lot* on which people youâre following, though, and there is absolutely no guarantee that something interesting is going to ever show up.
*But!* @prologic already mentioned in the past that itâs different for him. Apparently, he *does* discover new projects on GitHub. So *maybe* Iâm just not getting that platform and maybe Iâm just using it wrong. Thatâs totally possible! đ¤
@fastidious
> The kind of exposure I referred to was developers. Skilled individuals that could join, and/or contribute to the project. Yarn needs that kind of exposure.
That, I understand. đ I just donât think that youâll get that *just because* itâs hosted on GitHub.
Hmm, maybe Iâm misunderstanding or misusing the word âexposureâ. đ¤ Sorry. What I mean by âexposureâ: You make a painting and hang it on a wall of your apartment = little exposure, just the people that visit you at your home will see it. If you show the painting at an exhibition where thereâs 10 other paintings and lots of visitors = large exposure. However, if there are 1000 other paintings at that exhibition = much less exposure, because it wonât stick out that much. To me, GitHub is like an exhibition of paintings but *everyone* can show up at any time and put their painting there, so thereâs a *vast* number of paintings and *your* painting will hardly be noticed by anybody. So the mere fact that youâre at an exhibition doesnât mean that youâll get lots of exposure.
I mean, I have discovered literally zero projects just because theyâre on GitHub. I wouldnât even know how that works. When I log into GitHub, I see this:
First page of GitHub
Only the stuff on the right where it say âexplore repositoriesâ is *new* to me. And itâs completely random â the chance of Yarn showing up there is basically zero. The rest, I already know about it. So how will I discover new and interesting projects that I never heard about? Am I supposed to visit the âstarsâ pages of the people that I follow and then check out those repos? And look at the list of followers of those people? đ¤ I donât see how this is going to work out.
Alright, thereâs one thing: If one of the people that I follow âstarsâ a repo, Iâll get notified about that. Maybe something interesting shows up there. That depends *a lot* on which people youâre following, though, and there is absolutely no guarantee that something interesting is going to ever show up.
*But!* @prologic already mentioned in the past that itâs different for him. Apparently, he *does* discover new projects on GitHub. So *maybe* Iâm just not getting that platform and maybe Iâm just using it wrong. Thatâs totally possible! đ¤
@fastidious
> The kind of exposure I referred to was developers. Skilled individuals that could join, and/or contribute to the project. Yarn needs that kind of exposure.
That, I understand. đ I just donât think that youâll get that *just because* itâs hosted on GitHub.
Hmm, maybe Iâm misunderstanding or misusing the word âexposureâ. đ¤ Sorry. What I mean by âexposureâ: You make a painting and hang it on a wall of your apartment = little exposure, just the people that visit you at your home will see it. If you show the painting at an exhibition where thereâs 10 other paintings and lots of visitors = large exposure. However, if there are 1000 other paintings at that exhibition = much less exposure, because it wonât stick out that much. To me, GitHub is like an exhibition of paintings but *everyone* can show up at any time and put their painting there, so thereâs a *vast* number of paintings and *your* painting will hardly be noticed by anybody. So the mere fact that youâre at an exhibition doesnât mean that youâll get lots of exposure.
I mean, I have discovered literally zero projects just because theyâre on GitHub. I wouldnât even know how that works. When I log into GitHub, I see this:
First page of GitHub
Only the stuff on the right where it say âexplore repositoriesâ is *new* to me. And itâs completely random â the chance of Yarn showing up there is basically zero. The rest, I already know about it. So how will I discover new and interesting projects that I never heard about? Am I supposed to visit the âstarsâ pages of the people that I follow and then check out those repos? And look at the list of followers of those people? đ¤ I donât see how this is going to work out.
Alright, thereâs one thing: If one of the people that I follow âstarsâ a repo, Iâll get notified about that. Maybe something interesting shows up there. That depends *a lot* on which people youâre following, though, and there is absolutely no guarantee that something interesting is going to ever show up.
*But!* @prologic already mentioned in the past that itâs different for him. Apparently, he *does* discover new projects on GitHub. So *maybe* Iâm just not getting that platform and maybe Iâm just using it wrong. Thatâs totally possible! đ¤
(At the end of the day, this is just my opinion, of course. I sometimes have extreme views on these issues. And sometimes those views conflict with what the majority is doing. So, yeah. You do you! â)
(At the end of the day, this is just my opinion, of course. I sometimes have extreme views on these issues. And sometimes those views conflict with what the majority is doing. So, yeah. You do you! â)
(At the end of the day, this is just my opinion, of course. I sometimes have extreme views on these issues. And sometimes those views conflict with what the majority is doing. So, yeah. You do you! â)
@movq Very neat comparison to the exhibition hall! I'm also not getting the platform, I can't think of a single cool project I discovered there. It was always another source. I also tried to look through the projects of other people and never found anything I wanted to contribute or even use. It was also a super exhausting process in retrospect. Maybe I have notifications disabled (I'm also too lazy to check), but I never got an e-mail when somebody I follow starred something. There's also the problem, that I don't get the follower thing for a source code hosting platform. I just don't understand the use case for that. Looks like they tried to make it a social media thing, too (and failed).
I use GitHub. When you star repos, or fork them, the AI knows your interests, and recommend based on that. Same when you interact with repos, either by commenting, discussing, adding issues, or PRs. Same when you follow other people. You have it use the platform to get usable things out of it.
Exposure on GitHub would be ten, or thousand folds better than on an obscure, sometimes on/off, self hosted Gitea. I mean, it is just logical.