# I am the Watcher. I am your guide through this vast new twtiverse.
#
# Usage:
# https://watcher.sour.is/api/plain/users View list of users and latest twt date.
# https://watcher.sour.is/api/plain/twt View all twts.
# https://watcher.sour.is/api/plain/mentions?uri=:uri View all mentions for uri.
# https://watcher.sour.is/api/plain/conv/:hash View all twts for a conversation subject.
#
# Options:
# uri Filter to show a specific users twts.
# offset Start index for quey.
# limit Count of items to return (going back in time).
#
# twt range = 1 40
# self = https://watcher.sour.is/conv/px6ifpq
@prologic this seems to be missing "like" functionality, which maybe you never intended to implement.
However, that functionality is a major driving force for people using services like this due to the dopamine situation.
Looking at the twtxt spec, I wonder if it would be reasonable to implement it by creating a specially crafted status that yarn.social just interpreted as a "like"?
@kayos No. We will never do this. If you read the About Yarn.social page you'll understand why. The short answer is this:
Supporting reactions, like, counters, trending or anything else really based on algorithmically generated content and manipulating content leads to the same bad things you see in traditional "big-tech" social media. This drives a behaviour of "engagement" and "look at me" and all sorts of other psychological problems we're not paying for "big time" in society at large.
@kayos No. We will never do this. If you read the About Yarn.social page you'll understand why. The short answer is this:
Supporting reactions, like, counters, trending or anything else really based on algorithmically generated content and manipulating content leads to the same bad things you see in traditional "big-tech" social media. This drives a behaviour of "engagement" and "look at me" and all sorts of other psychological problems we're not paying for "big time" in society at large.
The number one driving factor of Facebook for example (_I used to work there_); is:
> Driving up engagement
Publicly they like to tell people:
> We connect people to each other
Or some such bullshit. But it's not true.
The number one driving factor of Facebook for example (_I used to work there_); is:
> Driving up engagement
Publicly they like to tell people:
> We connect people to each other
Or some such bullshit. But it's not true.
The bottom line is this, and it's something my old man @off_grid_living has taught me over many decades of wisdom:
> If you don't have something good to say, don't say it.
You can extend this to also mean:
> If you like what someone posted or is talking about, chime in with your piece too.
Having reactions/likes adds no value to the conversation whatsoever. It only serves the financial interests of companies like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc and their advertisers (_who are actually their customers/users, you are just their products!_).
The bottom line is this, and it's something my old man @off_grid_living has taught me over many decades of wisdom:
> If you don't have something good to say, don't say it.
You can extend this to also mean:
> If you like what someone posted or is talking about, chime in with your piece too.
Having reactions/likes adds no value to the conversation whatsoever. It only serves the financial interests of companies like Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, etc and their advertisers (_who are actually their customers/users, you are just their products!_).
@prologic no you're absolutely correct obviously, I do realize you used to do engineering for them and that you know exactly how it works. I also understand, hence the nod to the dopamine bit.
I understand where you're coming from, but I must admit it feels like a huge gap. While it may be used for evil in many cases, that dopamine hit is, as you very well know, what keeps people around.
I feel that it gets abused and misused in the other cases. In my humble opinion I would think there would be a way to implement it that would be resistant to the bad bits.
@prologic This is a fair point as well, but it doesn't feel as natural to say "Cool post!" when you can just "like" the post. However, I totally understand your position.
@kayos Yeah loo we've debated this time and time again, and every time single this comes up the answer is the same. If we don't stick to the original projects goals and vision here and the ethical/moral decisions of the project and it's design choices, we are no better (_or worse_) than any other "social" platform.
This is not something I think any of us that have poured nearly (_in a few months_) 2 years of effort in to ๐
@kayos Yeah loo we've debated this time and time again, and every time single this comes up the answer is the same. If we don't stick to the original projects goals and vision here and the ethical/moral decisions of the project and it's design choices, we are no better (_or worse_) than any other "social" platform.
This is not something I think any of us that have poured nearly (_in a few months_) 2 years of effort in to ๐
In practise, if you like something, just say so. It actually works quite well in reality ๐
In practise, if you like something, just say so. It actually works quite well in reality ๐
Furthermore if the answer is:
> If you like what someone posted or is talking about, chime in with your piece too.
It seems like it's six one way, half a dozen the other. One could just spin up 500 bots to write generically positive things on a post and do the same thing that you're worried about, I wager.
And more importantly, say why too! This is an important human aspect. If someone has (_for example_) walked many miles with heavy gear on to go take nice pictures of nature and then share them with the world, you should be courteous to say something about his/her hard work! I'm looking at you @lyse ๐ค
And more importantly, say why too! This is an important human aspect. If someone has (_for example_) walked many miles with heavy gear on to go take nice pictures of nature and then share them with the world, you should be courteous to say something about his/her hard work! I'm looking at you @lyse ๐ค
@prologic
> If we donโt stick to the original projects goals and vision here and the ethical/moral decisions of the project and itโs design choices, we are no better (or worse) than any other โsocialโ platform.
I fully respect this!
>And more importantly, say why too!
Then again, devils advocate here, a series of decision trees can come up with most of that, especially if it's being targeted by engagement bots, they already know the context. They can even mix it up with some negative to make it appear real, this happens in the real world all the time (amazon).
To be clear, I don't intend to change your mind! Just a discussion is all :D
@kayos Yes that is possible but actually quite hard to do on purpose ๐ค And it's already been tested ๐
@kayos Yes that is possible but actually quite hard to do on purpose ๐ค And it's already been tested ๐
@prologic Is there anything written up about that testing? Forgive my ignorance, it just seems like it wouldn't be all that hard to do, especially given the resources of the groups to worry about ๐ฌ
@kayos Instead of me spelling out the details, why don't we work together and improve the software and ecosystem to prevent or reduce the kinds of abuses you're thinking about ๐ค
For example; rate-limiting certain endpoints is what I have on the radar..
@kayos Instead of me spelling out the details, why don't we work together and improve the software and ecosystem to prevent or reduce the kinds of abuses you're thinking about ๐ค
For example; rate-limiting certain endpoints is what I have on the radar..
@kayos ๐ (see what I did there)
@prologic I am 100% all about it! I don't mean to come off as argumentative <3
@kayos hi! Iโm the site admin.. meaning Iโm the administrator.. meaning I make cups of coffee for the lead developer.
we have had this discussion many times on many long car rides ๐ฌ
I fully understand the need for the dopamine hit and without introducing โlikesโ and such yarn.social as a brand will suffer. however, itโs not here to make money. itโs more like social media rehab. we canโt be different if we are the same. we canโt spread the message if the message is tainted.
I really hope you stick around ๐งถ
@kt84
> ... we have had this discussion many times on many long car rides ๐ฌ ...
Ha ha! I bet. :-) Welcome @kayos also hope you stick around. :-)
I don't miss the lack of 'likes' etc so much once I took a bit of a sabbatical from typical social media. I think there's an element of 're-training' needed for some of us, as those platforms have got many of us so used to a particular way of doing things and hooked on the dopamine effects.
The older style forums back in the day seemed to do okay, without reactions (before they too eventually incorporated them).
@eldersnake I sometimes miss the likes for some posts, but I'm glad they're not here most of the time. When sites have likes, I end up only ever posting pixelart (or memes) and not talking, since that is what people will like on these kinds of sites, but with new text posts (unless it's a reply to a conversation a lot of people are interested in) you rarely get any attention, so starting those gives you next to no replies or engagement and only makes you feel down, thinking nobody cares about the topic. ๐ค
@kayos I don't really see the issue with bots that you are suggesting, since twtxt/yarn is purely pull, and not push. So there might be a bunch of twtxt.txt files replying or mentioning you in a lot of post, but unless you actively follow those feeds you will not get the noise.
Thank you, @prologic, usually I hike with rather light gear, though. ;-) @kayos To me it appears, if you get *real* feedback, not just a simple reaction, it's much more valuable. To state the obvious, it feels more personal and thus more connecting. Of course it requires much more time from the commenter, but that's also makes it even better for the one receiving it. And this makes it possible to spark other ideas, discussions, etc. As for bots, I'm 100% with @darch. You just don't follow them. Granted, it *might* be more difficult on yarnd than on traditional clients.
@lyse Can you elaborate a bit on what you meant by:
> And this makes it possible to spark other ideas, discussions, etc. As for bots, Iโm 100% with @darch. You just donโt follow them. Granted, it might be more difficult on yarnd than on traditional clients.
The facilities in yarnd to deal with this are there, granted rate-limiting is not (yet).
@lyse Can you elaborate a bit on what you meant by:
> And this makes it possible to spark other ideas, discussions, etc. As for bots, Iโm 100% with @darch. You just donโt follow them. Granted, it might be more difficult on yarnd than on traditional clients.
The facilities in yarnd to deal with this are there, granted rate-limiting is not (yet).
@prologic So if one just hits a thumbs-up/down/whatever button, there's just the information that the original content pleases/is crap/whatever. Now on a sidenote, interpreting the meaning of the button is not really clear in every case either. Imagine someone telling about a bad thing that had happend to them. What does liking that story mean here? "Oh no, I feel sorry for you", "I experienced the same", "I'm angry about the causes", "I hope this bad luck continues on with you, sucker, you haven't deserved any better" etc. With all the myriad of available smiley reaction thingiess that is a bit clearer, but still can provide tons of leeway for interpretation. Writing a proper reply on the other hand is usually much clearer. Of course, it can be misinterpreted, absolutely. I give you that. Irony and sarcasm can sometimes be hard to get.
Now back to track. When somebody replies with a real, halfway meaningful sentence, the topic can be broadened. Views on certain things be qualified. The subject can change. The discussion can take a turn or even be converted to something completely different. Often it's just a much more valuable and useful conversation. Yes, it's not guaranteed to work out that way. But chances are higher, that it might be. I'm convinced, that's not gonna happen with just "+1", "-1", "lol", "wtf" etc.
Yarnd provides the discovery view where you see twts from all the feeds in the cache, not just the feeds you follow. That way it is a bit more tricky to avoid potential bot spam. You would either have to not visit that view or mute the bots indiviually. Don't get me wrong, I like the discovery view myself a lot. Please keep it. But there's no such equivalent feature in traditional twtxt clients where you just see what you've subscribed to. Well, maybe registries as I just learned the other day. But I don't know of any client that incorporates them.
Hahahaha, @eaplmx! :-D Now I had to go over to twtxt.net to see what kind of emoji that is. I guessed either thumbs up or thumbs down.
To make things clear: I don't have a problem with those kind of replies (especially not if I'm getting trolled). Just wanted to point out why a written reply is usually nicer. However, in that case @eaplmx found an exception or even loophole. ;-)
The quality of the responses from all of you @kt84 , @darch , @lyse , @eldersnake , @thecanine really drives home the original point that @prologic was making from the beginning. I think you are all correct on several fronts. I definitely was having a kneejerk reaction due to my serious twitter dot com addiction.
I will say that it will make it harder to use the service on busy days, but on those days, should I really even be using social media (unless read-only for info)? Probably not.
I am certainly capable of helping w/ ratelimits and stress tests :D
@fastidious definitely does hit a valid nail on the head, if you will, though. However, it's probably better to try and address that at more of a social level than a technical one, with that particular issue.
@kayos Exactly, don't waste time on the internet if you're doing real-world stuff. :-) You don't know that you missed important internet stuff, because, well, you missed it. And because you missed it, it's suddenly not important anymore. And if it were truely important, you'd probably notice it later on anyways.