# I am the Watcher. I am your guide through this vast new twtiverse.
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@prologic I don’t have the best experience with WebKit, at least not with WebKit2GTK on Linux. MacOS might be different, I don’t know. But on Linux, WebKit2GTK is always *lightyears* behind Firefox/Chromium in terms of … everything. That’s my experience with running WebKit2GTK browsers for well over a decade (luakit, uzbl, dwb, whatever). I even made my own browser at some point, but I recently basically decided to give up on it and go back to Firefox.
WebKit is an admirable project, but they simply cannot compete with the sheer man power of Firefox/Chromium. There are so many standards and new features all the time, the WebKit team can’t keep up with that. A funny/good/sad example is imgur.com: For a while, it’s completely unusable; then WebKit catches up and it works more or less (probably pretty slow, though); then imgur changes stuff, uses new browser features and, boom, your WebKit browser doesn’t work again; and this cycle repeats over and over.
All this makes me pretty sad (once more 😅). Here’s the thing: WebKit is *super easy* to use in a GTK program. It’s just another GTK widget. It’s totally possible for a single person to write a browser that he/she likes using WebKit2GTK as a rendering engine. If you could actually *use* the web with WebKit, we could see *a ton* of different browsers out there, all serving different needs and purposes.
(I tried building a browser around the Firefox engine or the Chromium engine, but this is muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more involved than WebKit2GTK. I quickly gave up on that. Sure thing, Firefox/Chromium don’t *want* you to just use their rendering engine …)
@prologic I don’t have the best experience with WebKit, at least not with WebKit2GTK on Linux. MacOS might be different, I don’t know. But on Linux, WebKit2GTK is always *lightyears* behind Firefox/Chromium in terms of … everything. That’s my experience with running WebKit2GTK browsers for well over a decade (luakit, uzbl, dwb, whatever). I even made my own browser at some point, but I recently basically decided to give up on it and go back to Firefox.
WebKit is an admirable project, but they simply cannot compete with the sheer man power of Firefox/Chromium. There are so many standards and new features all the time, the WebKit team can’t keep up with that. A funny/good/sad example is imgur.com: For a while, it’s completely unusable; then WebKit catches up and it works more or less (probably pretty slow, though); then imgur changes stuff, uses new browser features and, boom, your WebKit browser doesn’t work again; and this cycle repeats over and over.
All this makes me pretty sad (once more 😅). Here’s the thing: WebKit is *super easy* to use in a GTK program. It’s just another GTK widget. It’s totally possible for a single person to write a browser that he/she likes using WebKit2GTK as a rendering engine. If you could actually *use* the web with WebKit, we could see *a ton* of different browsers out there, all serving different needs and purposes.
(I tried building a browser around the Firefox engine or the Chromium engine, but this is muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more involved than WebKit2GTK. I quickly gave up on that. Sure thing, Firefox/Chromium don’t *want* you to just use their rendering engine …)
@prologic I don’t have the best experience with WebKit, at least not with WebKit2GTK on Linux. MacOS might be different, I don’t know. But on Linux, WebKit2GTK is always *lightyears* behind Firefox/Chromium in terms of … everything. That’s my experience with running WebKit2GTK browsers for well over a decade (luakit, uzbl, dwb, whatever). I even made my own browser at some point, but I recently basically decided to give up on it and go back to Firefox.
WebKit is an admirable project, but they simply cannot compete with the sheer man power of Firefox/Chromium. There are so many standards and new features all the time, the WebKit team can’t keep up with that. A funny/good/sad example is imgur.com: For a while, it’s completely unusable; then WebKit catches up and it works more or less (probably pretty slow, though); then imgur changes stuff, uses new browser features and, boom, your WebKit browser doesn’t work again; and this cycle repeats over and over.
All this makes me pretty sad (once more 😅). Here’s the thing: WebKit is *super easy* to use in a GTK program. It’s just another GTK widget. It’s totally possible for a single person to write a browser that he/she likes using WebKit2GTK as a rendering engine. If you could actually *use* the web with WebKit, we could see *a ton* of different browsers out there, all serving different needs and purposes.
(I tried building a browser around the Firefox engine or the Chromium engine, but this is muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more involved than WebKit2GTK. I quickly gave up on that. Sure thing, Firefox/Chromium don’t *want* you to just use their rendering engine …)
@movq Whilst I agree with everything you said... That's just it though isn't it... Is "most" of the Web really that great in the first place? 🤔 I mean Wikipedia works, my pod works, my website works, so basically I'm good 😅 I tend to think the way @markwylde does here in that most of the web is utter garbage in the first place.
To give you another perspective... I run AdguardTeam/AdGuardHome: Network-wide ads in my home network as the primary DNS for all our devices. This is great as it removes all (most?) of the "garbage" out there on the so-called "Web". But... Every now and again, some random shit won't work, so I have to _temporarily_ disable AdGuard.
But at the end of the day I tolerate this... Maybe I shouldn't and just give up? 🤔 (_sometimes I certainly feel that way, so i feel your pain/sadness, I share it_)
@movq Whilst I agree with everything you said... That's just it though isn't it... Is "most" of the Web really that great in the first place? 🤔 I mean Wikipedia works, my pod works, my website works, so basically I'm good 😅 I tend to think the way @markwylde does here in that most of the web is utter garbage in the first place.
To give you another perspective... I run AdguardTeam/AdGuardHome: Network-wide ads in my home network as the primary DNS for all our devices. This is great as it removes all (most?) of the "garbage" out there on the so-called "Web". But... Every now and again, some random shit won't work, so I have to _temporarily_ disable AdGuard.
But at the end of the day I tolerate this... Maybe I shouldn't and just give up? 🤔 (_sometimes I certainly feel that way, so i feel your pain/sadness, I share it_)
@movq But I do see your point... Just tried to say login to my pod with this toy browser and that doesn't work for some reason -- 400 Bad Request -- This thing has no cookie storage? 🤔
@movq But I do see your point... Just tried to say login to my pod with this toy browser and that doesn't work for some reason -- 400 Bad Request -- This thing has no cookie storage? 🤔
@prologic @movq I'm of a similar mind as @prologic. "The web" as such is virtually unusable without 2 or 3 ad blockers and tampermonkey or its equivalent. The vast majority of these fancy capabilities are being used to clog up your bandwidth with ads. Sure there's specialized stuff that you want to view sometimes that requires some of those features. But this is where a truly plugin-oriented web browser would be a big boon, I think. Rather than have a monolithic web browser that supports all this crazy shit all the time, have a basic web browser that gets you 80% of what you need, and a suite of plugins that you can actually disable or remove that gets you the rest of the stuff you might want. Modern web browsers have extensions, it's true, but the "core" web browser is an enormous, horrifying monolith, the worst software design imaginable. They're trying to be operating systems without having any of the affordances of an actual, well-designed operating system.
@abucci hmm, you can pay for ad-less pages and services. If you are browsing for free, I'd expect to see some ads.
Previously we payed for magazines and still received ads. Now we have 'free' services exchanging our data and attention for content. We can read more on how we reached there in "Information doesn't want to be free"
So, my shortcut has been, pay for the services, use adblockers for everything else.
@abucci connecting my previous twts together, if behind Chrome there is Google, willing to make an Operating System for the Web and Mobiles, they'll have incentives to do it so, pushing a lot of money/investment to the massive users. (And an investment has an expected return on investment)
What could we do against those huge corporations? That's the interesting and hard question
@eaplmx idk, I don't remember magazines throwing flashing videos in front of the page I'm trying to read, tracking what I was looking at at all times (even when I'm not looking at the magazine) and correlating that with existing databases about me, purposely subverting my attempts to stop some of that from happening.......
@eaplmx Functioning government is the obvious answer, but we live in an age where lots of people, many of whom are representatives of those corporations, desperately want us to believe that government can't do anything and will go so far as destroying as much of government as they can to "prove" their point.
Google's power to influence the US Congress appears to be ready to slip, so perhaps there's some hope on that score. Otherwise, I'm not sure what other large-enough power structure exists that can influence technology company behavior in a more friendly direction than the one it's been taking.
@prologic @abucci Oh, I totally get your point of view. 😅 (“90% of the web sucks anyway” etc.)
The thing is … we must use the “sucky part” of the web anyway, don’t we? At least I do. There is absolutely no way (anymore) for me to use a WebKit2GTK browser at work – I did that for a while, long ago. (We’re now forced to do 2FA with some USB key and WebKit doesn’t support that anyway …)
Even in my private life, I do want to use YouTube or even Netflix. I want to search something on DuckDuckGo (or whatever), open a link and it should open that page – instead, it works only ~50-70% of the time. Yes, those might be shitty web pages, but if they contain the information that I’m looking for, then I’d rather be able to visit them.
Every time a web page that I wanted to visit didn’t work, I opened Firefox. Over time, I noticed that I usually have two browsers running *at all times* – my WebKit2GTK one and Firefox. Firefox for all the web sites that didn’t work in WebKit.
Which web sites don’t work? Mostly those with a gazillion JS frameworks and twenty billion CSS effects. (Btw, “is really slow” is the same as “doesn’t work” for me.) It has nothing to do with ads. 😅 It’s just shitty shitty bloated web sites – and more web sites become like that every day.
With all that said, it *is* possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a *very* bumpy ride and you need a lot of patience. 😅~
@prologic @abucci Oh, I totally get your point of view. 😅 (“90% of the web sucks anyway” etc.)
The thing is … we must use the “sucky part” of the web anyway, don’t we? At least I do. There is absolutely no way (anymore) for me to use a WebKit2GTK browser at work – I did that for a while, long ago. (We’re now forced to do 2FA with some USB key and WebKit doesn’t support that anyway …)
Even in my private life, I do want to use YouTube or even Netflix. I want to search something on DuckDuckGo (or whatever), open a link and it should open that page – instead, it works only ~50-70% of the time. Yes, those might be shitty web pages, but if they contain the information that I’m looking for, then I’d rather be able to visit them.
Every time a web page that I wanted to visit didn’t work, I opened Firefox. Over time, I noticed that I usually have two browsers running *at all times* – my WebKit2GTK one and Firefox. Firefox for all the web sites that didn’t work in WebKit.
Which web sites don’t work? Mostly those with a gazillion JS frameworks and twenty billion CSS effects. (Btw, “is really slow” is the same as “doesn’t work” for me.) It has nothing to do with ads. 😅 It’s just shitty shitty bloated web sites – and more web sites become like that every day.
With all that said, it *is* possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a *very* bumpy ride and you need a lot of patience. 😅~
@prologic @abucci Oh, I totally get your point of view. 😅 (“90% of the web sucks anyway” etc.)
The thing is … we must use the “sucky part” of the web anyway, don’t we? At least I do. There is absolutely no way (anymore) for me to use a WebKit2GTK browser at work – I did that for a while, long ago. (We’re now forced to do 2FA with some USB key and WebKit doesn’t support that anyway …)
Even in my private life, I do want to use YouTube or even Netflix. I want to search something on DuckDuckGo (or whatever), open a link and it should open that page – instead, it works only ~50-70% of the time. Yes, those might be shitty web pages, but if they contain the information that I’m looking for, then I’d rather be able to visit them.
Every time a web page that I wanted to visit didn’t work, I opened Firefox. Over time, I noticed that I usually have two browsers running *at all times* – my WebKit2GTK one and Firefox. Firefox for all the web sites that didn’t work in WebKit.
Which web sites don’t work? Mostly those with a gazillion JS frameworks and twenty billion CSS effects. (Btw, “is really slow” is the same as “doesn’t work” for me.) It has nothing to do with ads. 😅 It’s just shitty shitty bloated web sites – and more web sites become like that every day.
With all that said, it *is* possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a *very* bumpy ride and you need a lot of patience. 😅~
@prologic @abucci Oh, I totally get your point of view. 😅 (“90% of the web sucks anyway” etc.)
The thing is … we must use the “sucky part” of the web anyway, don’t we? At least I do. There is absolutely no way (anymore) for me to use a WebKit2GTK browser at work – I did that for a while, long ago. (We’re now forced to do 2FA with some USB key and WebKit doesn’t support that anyway …)
Even in my private life, I do want to use YouTube or even Netflix. I want to search something on DuckDuckGo (or whatever), open a link and it should open that page – instead, it works only ~50-70% of the time. Yes, those might be shitty web pages, but if they contain the information that I’m looking for, then I’d rather be able to visit them.
Every time a web page that I wanted to visit didn’t work, I opened Firefox. Over time, I noticed that I usually have two browsers running *at all times* – my WebKit2GTK one and Firefox. Firefox for all the web sites that didn’t work in WebKit.
Which web sites don’t work? Mostly those with a gazillion JS frameworks and twenty billion CSS effects. (Btw, “is really slow” is the same as “doesn’t work” for me.) It has nothing to do with ads. 😅 It’s just shitty shitty bloated web sites – and more web sites become like that every day.
With all that said, it *is* possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a *very* bumpy ride and you need a lot of patience. 😅~
@abucci well, I remember Reader's Digest throwing whole catalogues to my Grandpa along with the magazines he had already paid for.
They had his address and credit card info with promotions like "only send this message and you'll receive the next book".
And for Flashing videos, we could go to Public TV broadcasting.
But I get your point, and I add. "If the 'product' is free, you are the product". And those companies are trying to productize you. Manifest V3 is a clear example of the Status quo, disguised as "for your convenience".
The real point is not being part of that "Society of complaining" but being key to actually change what bothers us.
@abucci Talking about government is a rabbit hole. What I don't like is talking about it like the magic silver bullet that will solve all the problems and become a religion and ideology...
And it's not only a matter of experimental post-capitalism but more about pragmatical solutions. We have about 30-60 years more here. What are we gonna do in those years? As individuals, as families, as communities, as nations, as a whole planet?
@eaplmx The number one (#1) problem with Government(s) (all? most?) is there is never any consequences to their action(s). So much corruption and illegal activities that would normally carry consequences of years of jail time, fines that would send you broke, don't seem to apply to Government(s) or Politicians.
If they did, they wouldn't do half the stupid corrupt shit they get away with in the first place and _actually_ serve the goddamn people they're meant to serve.
That's my opinion and something I _believe_ (hope) we can one-day fix 🤞
@eaplmx The number one (#1) problem with Government(s) (all? most?) is there is never any consequences to their action(s). So much corruption and illegal activities that would normally carry consequences of years of jail time, fines that would send you broke, don't seem to apply to Government(s) or Politicians.
If they did, they wouldn't do half the stupid corrupt shit they get away with in the first place and _actually_ serve the goddamn people they're meant to serve.
That's my opinion and something I _believe_ (hope) we can one-day fix 🤞
> it is possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a bumpy ride
I guess that’s what I originally wanted to say. Then depression took over and derailed my train of thoughts into a nightmare. 😅
> it is possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a bumpy ride
I guess that’s what I originally wanted to say. Then depression took over and derailed my train of thoughts into a nightmare. 😅
> it is possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a bumpy ride
I guess that’s what I originally wanted to say. Then depression took over and derailed my train of thoughts into a nightmare. 😅
> it is possible to use WebKit2GTK as a (main) daily driver. You should just expect a bumpy ride
I guess that’s what I originally wanted to say. Then depression took over and derailed my train of thoughts into a nightmare. 😅
@prologic yep, that's part of the game of power. Why would you like to join that corrupt environment if wouldn't it be to take advantage of the system?
And the Politicians are a public image for 4 or 6 years, who's behind them? Who's paying the politicians to do the dirty work?
So, this is the way humans have lived for many, many years. There are going to be rebels like you and me, trying to 'fix' things (pushing to our aspirations), but there is always going to be that fight, IMO
It's not an easy conversation, I have to say. Even writing this is controversial. The easiest path would be saying "Yeah, it sucks bro", and not doing anything.
@eaplmx Yup you're right! 👌 But in my mind the worst thing we can all do is sit idly by and do "nothing".
We should be talking about this! 🤗
@eaplmx Yup you're right! 👌 But in my mind the worst thing we can all do is sit idly by and do "nothing".
We should be talking about this! 🤗
@eaplmx government is *us*. When you say it's a rabbit hole, you're essentially saying that we can't do anything, which is an unproductive way to think.
@eaplmx under capitalism, if the product is free then you're the product. But we are not required to run every last thing in society as if it were a capitalist enterprise.
@abucci I know, tell us about the post-capitalist alternative that our generation could experience. How is it?
@abucci nop, that's not what I meant. And I don't like unproductive ways to think or to talk, so that is something you assumed.
(Also I don't want to be obsessed with productivity, but that's another discussion)
@abucci nop, that's not what I meant. And I don't like unproductive ways to think or to talk, so that is something you assumed.
(Also I don't want to be obsessed with productivity, but that's another discussión)
@eaplmx It's not about inventing an entire political system to transcend our current circumstances. The family is not capitalist either--you don't pay your kids for hugs, or your cousin for advice. You don't pay people for gifts they give you on your birthday. I'm sure there are plenty of capitalists who would love to monetize all that and more, and would love for all of us to find that the best way to be. But we don't have to make it easier for them.
@abucci I don't disagree, in fact, families are my favourite community right now (perhaps I'm lucky for that).
That said, it has been difficult to work with my family. When you involve money into a family problems appear.
There is even this meme 
So, it's not a matter of Capitalism, but of greediness and money. (And just to check, capitalism is not about money, money is not the evilness here, but how we work for it)
So, Money + Families is a difficult combination. Check this research on psychology applied to money and free stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational#Being_Paid_vs._A_Friendly_Favor
Yes, we could try living in communes, having co-ops, and other experimental post-capitalist alternatives. I don't know what could happen.
@abucci On gifts, I guess our mind has a problem with the Free concept, (as in freedom, as in culture, as in something you can steal).
Last year I found an appealing reading on the topic of Open Software as a gift. I recommend to take a look to it
https://apenwarr.ca/log/20211229